[XCSSA] U-Too, Tim S.?
X-otic Computer Systems of San Antonio
xcssa at xcssa.org
Fri May 22 09:30:12 CDT 2009
X-otic Computer Systems of San Antonio wrote:
> Hehaeh yeah you almost read my mind since I was going to add something
> very similar but figured I had digressed enough :) Gentoo has so much
> promise and, in fact, the whole source-based thing is something I
> really like. 'yum' and 'apt-get' could add just a few features and end
> up having a really nice package manager plus being able to
> conveniently build and manage source packages (say in the form of
> source RPMs and DEBs). I started caring less when x86-64 started to
> really gain steam though. Because these packages seem to be more
> optimized than their i386 counterparts.
>
> The foundation of Gentoo is solid in my opinion. The main problem is
> lack of consistency. Gentoo needs a leader. Or at least a group that
> pushes them in the right direction. There doesn't seem to be any good
> method of revision, packages break other packages, a "stable" system
> really isn't, etc. If they had their own version of a Mark
> Shuttleworth (the Ubuntu guy) then things might turn around. The guy
> they had ended up working for Microsoft (jerk). On that note, though,
> sponsorship from a company might not hurt either.
>
> *shrug*
>
> http://funroll-loops.info/
>
> Tim S.
I'm going to take this opportunity to shamelessly plug my favorite
distro: Source Mage
www.sourcemage.org
http://wiki.sourcemage.org/FrequentlyAskedQuestions/DiffGentoo
Like gentoo in that we build from source, but that's about it.
That article is very well written and describes the differences between us.
You can always join #sourcemage on irc.freenode.net and get more info
there. I idle in there and might even be active sometimes, heh.
Anyways, Try it, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.
David Kowis
>
> On May 21, 2009, at 11:56 PM, X-otic Computer Systems of San Antonio
> wrote:
>
>> OMG that was the baddest @$$ description of Gentoo I've ever heard...
>>
>> now add...
>>
>> Your super-model gf convinces you to be Mr. Mailman Wonderful's next
>> victim... and you don't like men in that way... AT ALL!
>>
>> THAT'S Gentoo!
>>
>> --- On Thu, 5/21/09, xcssa-request at xcssa.org <xcssa-
>> request at xcssa.org> wrote:
>>
>>> From: xcssa-request at xcssa.org <xcssa-request at xcssa.org>
>>> Subject: XCSSA Digest, Vol 18, Issue 9
>>> To: xcssa at xcssa.org
>>> Date: Thursday, May 21, 2009, 12:00 PM
>>> Send XCSSA mailing list submissions
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>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>> 1. Recommendations for a SAMBA/NAS
>>> device?
>>> (X-otic Computer Systems of San
>>> Antonio)
>>> 2. Re: Recommendations for a SAMBA/NAS
>>> device?
>>> (X-otic Computer Systems of San
>>> Antonio)
>>> 3. Re: Recommendations for a SAMBA/NAS
>>> device?
>>> (X-otic Computer Systems of San
>>> Antonio)
>>> 4. Re: Recommendations for a SAMBA/NAS
>>> device?
>>> (X-otic Computer Systems of San
>>> Antonio)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 22:32:58 -0500
>>> From: X-otic Computer Systems of San Antonio <xcssa at xcssa.org>
>>> Subject: [XCSSA] Recommendations for a SAMBA/NAS device?
>>> To: "The San Antonio Linux User's Group Mailing List"
>>> <satlug at satlug.org>,
>>> xcssa at xcssa.org
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <869de8470905202032s5a9a53edu1df3fd1df7bc06db at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>
>>> Hello everyone.
>>>
>>> I'm trying to solve a major power issue at the house and am
>>> hoping
>>> that someone can shed some of their energy managment
>>> insight.
>>>
>>> I've been using Zeus (my main gaming rig) as my fileserver
>>> now for a
>>> while but am wantnig to see what I can do about cutting
>>> down on my
>>> power usage. Zeus is an Athlon64 running at about
>>> 3GHz with a total
>>> of 7 drives in it and a handful of other peripherals. The
>>> problem is
>>> that four of those drives are SATA 750GB drives and are
>>> hanging off of
>>> a Promise FastTrack TX130 RAID controller and the array is
>>> about 2TB
>>> and has pretty much everything on it concerning projects,
>>> documents,
>>> code, apps, etc. and is very important to have always
>>> available.
>>>
>>> The problem I'm wanting to solve is how can I minimize
>>> power usage but
>>> still keep the array available? I've pondered being
>>> able to seperate
>>> the drive array from the machine, but I'd have to have a
>>> machine to
>>> put it into and then I'd be back to the same problem
>>> again.
>>>
>>> My thinking is that a low-powered machine, like an embedded
>>> system
>>> would do it nicely, but I want to make every effort I can
>>> to insure
>>> that the machine is as low-power as possible, and that the
>>> data on the
>>> array is preserved. I am thinking something like the
>>> Linksys NSLU2,
>>> but with one PCI slot instead of two USB ports, running off
>>> of flash
>>> or a laptop HDD in a Linux environment.
>>>
>>> I've done some research into an embedded systems and was
>>> impressed
>>> with the Shuttle and VIA boards. Something like that
>>> might prove
>>> ideal but I have never used one. I have an Artigo
>>> pico-ITX board but
>>> it is very underpowered, I don't want to run into a similar
>>> situation
>>> with this project.
>>>
>>> With that in mind, I'm looking for suggestions both from a
>>> hardware
>>> level and from a software level.
>>>
>>> On the hardware side, I want a case that has three forward
>>> facing 5.25
>>> drives (the SATA drive cage I have occupies three bays) and
>>> some place
>>> to mount a laptop HDD (or if a flash drive is used, this
>>> requirement
>>> is mitigated).
>>>
>>> The hardware must haves:
>>> - 10/100 Ethernet wired. (GigE is a Nice-to-have, but
>>> not required)
>>> - One PCI slot (PCI-64bit is not needed)
>>> - One IDE port or Flash disk capable of a 4GB microdrive or
>>> similar
>>> sized CF card.
>>> - Power Supply that won't crap out on me in a year that can
>>> be easily
>>> field-replaced and can drive all components. (No fifty
>>> thousand power
>>> bricks and don't want another "e-machines" power supply)
>>> - Processor that is not massively overpowered, but not
>>> horribly
>>> underpowered either. Want to be able to run LAMP and SAMBA
>>> and support
>>> multiple concurrent users without issue. (Believe it or
>>> not, Windows
>>> works without issue in it's current configuration.)
>>> - Must have adequate cooling but not sound like a jet
>>> engine. (Don't
>>> want it louder than a Compaq DL380 :P )
>>>
>>> On the software side, must haves
>>> - Linux platform, with modular installation/removal. (Like
>>> apt-get,
>>> but recently got stung by Ubuntu so not too sure on
>>> software updates.)
>>> - SSH, Samba, Apache, NTP
>>> - Hardware support for the FastTrack TX430 is a
>>> _MUST_ I can't afford
>>> another RAID card and besides, where am I going to stash a
>>> TB of data
>>> for the conversion?
>>>
>>> Nice-to-haves (both hardware and software)
>>> - Really don't want another desktop or server case around
>>> the house,
>>> something smaller is nice
>>> - A Web-based administration console like the NSLU2 or
>>> similar.
>>>
>>> What do you guys recommend? What are your experiences with
>>> home-NAS
>>> solutions? What issues did you encounter and what did
>>> you do to fix
>>> them?
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>
>>> FIRESTORM_v1
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 08:14:54 -0500
>>> From: X-otic Computer Systems of San Antonio <xcssa at xcssa.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [XCSSA] Recommendations for a SAMBA/NAS
>>> device?
>>> To: xcssa at xcssa.org
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <E8B3743B-99E7-4A1B-B0A1-E75B17451852 at moocowproductions.org>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed;
>>> delsp=yes
>>>
>>> If you're lazy and can afford it (as these are a bit
>>> pricey):
>>>
>>> http://drobo.com/ (need the NAS add-on)
>>> http://qnap.com/
>>> http://www.buffalotech.com/home/
>>>
>>> That first one blew my mind, though I think it's just RAID
>>> + LVM +
>>> cleverness + magic. I dunno though. Sure is convenient
>>> (watch the
>>> video if you want to have your mind blown). It's really
>>> pricey though
>>> with the NAS option.
>>> That last one has an open source hack you can drop in (and
>>> I think has
>>> a generic version as well). Check Wikipedia for that. The
>>> top 2 both
>>> run a type of Linux. I think the stuff from QNap is even
>>> Debian Linux.
>>>
>>> Now if you want to throw down on your own, check out
>>> logicsupply.com.
>>> They have tons low-power motherboards (mostly ITX), some
>>> with their
>>> own CF slot on-board. They also offer specialized cases,
>>> including for
>>> NAS use. I like these guys because of their VIA selection -
>>> they have
>>> plenty of passively cooled motherboards with plenty of SATA
>>> ports for
>>> RAID (in this case, software RAID is probably all you need,
>>> but don't
>>> forget to add on LVM - see below) also with CF Cards and
>>> Gigabit
>>> Ethernet. They aren't the cheapest but their select beats
>>> the crap out
>>> of NewEgg's for these type of boards.
>>>
>>> Otherwise, I just have been making a list on NewEgg. NewEgg
>>> also has
>>> some off-the-shelf NAS units (such as the ones I mentioned
>>> above).
>>>
>>> Now, to elaborate a bit on power, most of the off-the-shelf
>>> NAS units
>>> that run Linux are running ARM, which is very low power and
>>> reasonably
>>> performing. If you want to replicate all the features of a
>>> NAS (which
>>> could include basis web-browsing / web-development) then a
>>> VIA C3, C7,
>>> or Nano would be plenty. You can get an Intel Atom too but
>>> I think
>>> Intel is late to the party on these things (and I'm tired
>>> of their
>>> copy-cat like mentality and their general dominance). All
>>> of these
>>> chips run at around 1Ghz or so, which is plenty for a NAS
>>> even with
>>> web-services and/or a firewall. And we're talking 5-10W at
>>> full blast.
>>> In fact, Nano (and I think Atom) are 64-bit capable, though
>>> that seems
>>> a bit of overkill for a NAS - you won't need more than 1GB
>>> of RAM
>>> unless you plan on doing something else with it.
>>>
>>> Now all these are x86 boards. I haven't found any ITX (or
>>> ATX, for
>>> that matter) motherboard with an ARM or MIPS chip that
>>> wouldn't cost
>>> me like $1000. *shrug* Kinda sucks but oh well.
>>>
>>> As for RAID. I currently have an LSI MegaRAID and it's
>>> pretty hot, but
>>> I realized that for a home NAS, it's not really necessary.
>>> In fact,
>>> Linux software RAID is really awesome. Sure, you might
>>> loose some
>>> performance in certain cases, but if you don't have a
>>> battery on your
>>> RAID controller, you should be using write-through cache,
>>> and your
>>> write performance isn't boosted anyway. Plus, if we're
>>> talking about a
>>> RAID5, you shouldn't be expecting amazing speed anyway. And
>>> Linux
>>> Software RAID can be tied to, say, e-mail alerting, so you
>>> can get e-
>>> mails instead of annoying beeps when a drive dies.
>>>
>>> In fact, I'm putting my money where my mouth is - when I
>>> build my NAS,
>>> I don't think I'm going to use the RAID card. In fact, if
>>> you are
>>> stuck on hardware RAID, I'd be happy to sell it to you for
>>> a
>>> reasonable price. That said, I haven't yet migrated my
>>> stuff off it
>>> yet and that is still probably a few months away.
>>>
>>> You could use RAID5 and stop there because software RAID
>>> lets you
>>> extend that space. That's dangerous, yes, but it can be
>>> done online
>>> and I am much more comfortable with a command-line utility
>>> than a
>>> crazy RAID BIOS. Point is, you could pop in a drive,
>>> partition it, add
>>> it to the RAID5, and then grow your file-system (resize2fs
>>> if you are
>>> using ext3 - XFS has tools to do it as well - note in later
>>> versions
>>> of Linux this can also be done online).
>>>
>>> But I wouldn't stop there. Instead, also consider LVM. When
>>> you aren't
>>> using it for snapshotting, the performance penalty of LVM
>>> is like 1%
>>> (that is a number with a real benchmark behind it, although
>>> it was
>>> MySQL-centric). The benefits are HUGE though. If you want
>>> to migrate
>>> to a bigger RAID5, but do not want to add drives to the
>>> existing
>>> RAID5, all you do is build the new one, plop LVM on it, and
>>> then tell
>>> LVM to stop using your current RAID5 and move everything to
>>> your new
>>> RAID5. Then resize your file-system. That's it. All while
>>> being
>>> totally online. No rsync's needed! Similarly, if you just
>>> want to add
>>> more space instead of replacing it, you can do that too.
>>>
>>>
>>> Now is all this is super-new, my suggestion would be to
>>> find a Linux
>>> distro that has this baked in. I hate to say it, but I've
>>> been taking
>>> the RHCE and I have to admit that Red-Hat has this stuff
>>> fairly
>>> squared away. So consider CentOS. When I build mine,
>>> however, I'm
>>> going Ubuntu with a distant possibility of using FreeBSD.
>>> For now,
>>> though, my current box runs Gentoo.
>>>
>>> I $&%^ing hate that distro. It's like being married to
>>> a super-model,
>>> thinking she loves you and being naive that she will never
>>> cheat on
>>> you. But then, BAM! There's her and your mailman knocking
>>> boots after
>>> you came home from work. Not even home early. Just home at
>>> your
>>> regular time. And like you're angry and sad and all torn
>>> up
>>> emotionality, but then you keep coming back because you're
>>> lame and
>>> she's a super-model.
>>>
>>> That's Gentoo in a nutshell. Moving on ...
>>>
>>> You could also look at NAS-centric stuff, like FreeNAS
>>> (Runs FreeBSD)
>>> or OpenFilter (runs Linux, dunno which flavor). They have,
>>> I believe,
>>> tools to help you manage things like RAID and LVM (though I
>>> have no
>>> idea how they do that on FreeBSD - I assume using ZFS).
>>>
>>> If I can ever make it to a meeting again, I'd be happy to
>>> show off my
>>> new found RHCE (training, I don't have the cert yet :P)
>>> skills and
>>> bust a demo of this stuff in action. I should be able to
>>> use our
>>> current MySQL test box from work for this purpose - I don't
>>> think
>>> anyone would mind. I think I could even do it in a VM.
>>>
>>> Wow. Well that make me so excited I'm not late for work :)
>>> Ooops :)
>>>
>>> Tim S.
>>>
>>> On May 20, 2009, at 10:32 PM, X-otic Computer Systems of
>>> San Antonio
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello everyone.
>>>>
>>>> I'm trying to solve a major power issue at the house
>>> and am hoping
>>>> that someone can shed some of their energy managment
>>> insight.
>>>> I've been using Zeus (my main gaming rig) as my
>>> fileserver now for a
>>>> while but am wantnig to see what I can do about
>>> cutting down on my
>>>> power usage. Zeus is an Athlon64 running at
>>> about 3GHz with a total
>>>> of 7 drives in it and a handful of other peripherals.
>>> The problem is
>>>> that four of those drives are SATA 750GB drives and
>>> are hanging off of
>>>> a Promise FastTrack TX130 RAID controller and the
>>> array is about 2TB
>>>> and has pretty much everything on it concerning
>>> projects, documents,
>>>> code, apps, etc. and is very important to have always
>>> available.
>>>> The problem I'm wanting to solve is how can I minimize
>>> power usage but
>>>> still keep the array available? I've pondered
>>> being able to seperate
>>>> the drive array from the machine, but I'd have to have
>>> a machine to
>>>> put it into and then I'd be back to the same problem
>>> again.
>>>> My thinking is that a low-powered machine, like an
>>> embedded system
>>>> would do it nicely, but I want to make every effort I
>>> can to insure
>>>> that the machine is as low-power as possible, and that
>>> the data on the
>>>> array is preserved. I am thinking something like the
>>> Linksys NSLU2,
>>>> but with one PCI slot instead of two USB ports,
>>> running off of flash
>>>> or a laptop HDD in a Linux environment.
>>>>
>>>> I've done some research into an embedded systems and
>>> was impressed
>>>> with the Shuttle and VIA boards. Something like
>>> that might prove
>>>> ideal but I have never used one. I have an
>>> Artigo pico-ITX board but
>>>> it is very underpowered, I don't want to run into a
>>> similar situation
>>>> with this project.
>>>>
>>>> With that in mind, I'm looking for suggestions both
>>> from a hardware
>>>> level and from a software level.
>>>>
>>>> On the hardware side, I want a case that has three
>>> forward facing 5.25
>>>> drives (the SATA drive cage I have occupies three
>>> bays) and some place
>>>> to mount a laptop HDD (or if a flash drive is used,
>>> this requirement
>>>> is mitigated).
>>>>
>>>> The hardware must haves:
>>>> - 10/100 Ethernet wired. (GigE is a
>>> Nice-to-have, but not required)
>>>> - One PCI slot (PCI-64bit is not needed)
>>>> - One IDE port or Flash disk capable of a 4GB
>>> microdrive or similar
>>>> sized CF card.
>>>> - Power Supply that won't crap out on me in a year
>>> that can be easily
>>>> field-replaced and can drive all components. (No fifty
>>> thousand power
>>>> bricks and don't want another "e-machines" power
>>> supply)
>>>> - Processor that is not massively overpowered, but not
>>> horribly
>>>> underpowered either. Want to be able to run LAMP and
>>> SAMBA and support
>>>> multiple concurrent users without issue. (Believe it
>>> or not, Windows
>>>> works without issue in it's current configuration.)
>>>> - Must have adequate cooling but not sound like a jet
>>> engine. (Don't
>>>> want it louder than a Compaq DL380 :P )
>>>>
>>>> On the software side, must haves
>>>> - Linux platform, with modular installation/removal.
>>> (Like apt-get,
>>>> but recently got stung by Ubuntu so not too sure on
>>> software updates.)
>>>> - SSH, Samba, Apache, NTP
>>>> - Hardware support for the FastTrack TX430 is a
>>> _MUST_ I can't afford
>>>> another RAID card and besides, where am I going to
>>> stash a TB of data
>>>> for the conversion?
>>>>
>>>> Nice-to-haves (both hardware and software)
>>>> - Really don't want another desktop or server case
>>> around the house,
>>>> something smaller is nice
>>>> - A Web-based administration console like the NSLU2 or
>>> similar.
>>>> What do you guys recommend? What are your experiences
>>> with home-NAS
>>>> solutions? What issues did you encounter and
>>> what did you do to fix
>>>> them?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>>
>>>> FIRESTORM_v1
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> XCSSA mailing list
>>>> XCSSA at xcssa.org
>>>> http://xcssa.org/mailman/listinfo/xcssa
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 3
>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 10:55:41 -0500
>>> From: X-otic Computer Systems of San Antonio <xcssa at xcssa.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [XCSSA] Recommendations for a SAMBA/NAS
>>> device?
>>> To: xcssa at xcssa.org
>>> Cc: The San Antonio Linux User's Group Mailing List
>>> <satlug at satlug.org>
>>> Message-ID: <200905211055.42145.tweeks at rackspace.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>
>>> On Wednesday 20 May 2009, X-otic Computer Systems of San
>>> Antonio wrote:
>>>> Hello everyone.
>>>>
>>>> I'm trying to solve a major power issue at the house
>>> and am hoping
>>>> that someone can shed some of their energy managment
>>> insight.
>>>> [...]
>>>> The problem is
>>>> that four of those drives are SATA 750GB drives and
>>> are hanging off of
>>> [...]
>>>> My thinking is that a low-powered machine, like an
>>> embedded system
>>>> would do it nicely,
>>> [...]
>>>> What do you guys recommend? What are your experiences
>>> with home-NAS
>>>> solutions? What issues did you encounter and
>>> what did you do to fix
>>>> them?
>>> I think that your thinking is off.. Using a low power
>>> embedded motherboard is
>>> barely going to touch your power consumption when 85% of
>>> your NAS power is
>>> being consumed by the spinning drives (not the
>>> motherboard).
>>>
>>> I don't mean to sound harsh.. but what you need to do is to
>>> look in to using
>>> a "real RAID card" with battery backed up cache, write back
>>> cache, and power
>>> control so that when he array is not being written to.. the
>>> drives can be
>>> spun down. Then when a write happens.. it writes to
>>> the cache and goes on
>>> while the RAID card wakes up the drives and spins them
>>> up. Some reads can
>>> even stay cached.
>>>
>>> Some OTS home-NAS systems do this now. But nicer RAID
>>> cards that can handle
>>> this type of stuff are the nicer LSI, Adaptec and 3Ware
>>> IIRC SATA and SAS
>>> cards.
>>>
>>> There are a couple of folks on list who have built such
>>> systems...
>>>
>>> Tweeks
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 4
>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 11:11:37 -0500
>>> From: X-otic Computer Systems of San Antonio <xcssa at xcssa.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [XCSSA] Recommendations for a SAMBA/NAS
>>> device?
>>> To: xcssa at xcssa.org
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <79ec289f0905210911u28a53c93ocd446d10542c391d at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>
>>> On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 10:55 AM, X-otic Computer Systems
>>> of San
>>> Antonio <xcssa at xcssa.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't mean to sound harsh.. but what you need to do
>>> is to look in to using
>>>> a "real RAID card" with battery backed up cache, write
>>> back cache, and power
>>>> control so that when he array is not being written
>>> to.. the drives can be
>>>> spun down. ?Then when a write happens.. it writes to
>>> the cache and goes on
>>>> while the RAID card wakes up the drives and spins them
>>> up. ?Some reads can
>>>> even stay cached.
>>>>
>>>> Some OTS home-NAS systems do this now. ?But nicer RAID
>>> cards that can handle
>>>> this type of stuff are the nicer LSI, Adaptec and
>>> 3Ware IIRC SATA and SAS
>>>> cards.
>>> I think the real question is, is it worth the cost of the
>>> new wiz bang
>>> hardware versus his existing electrical bill? To me it
>>> doesn't make
>>> sense to spend $1000 on new hardware to save $5 a month on
>>> your
>>> electric bill.
>>>
>>> Jeremy
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jeremy Mann
>>> jeremy at biochem.uthscsa.edu
>>>
>>> University of Texas Health Science Center
>>> Bioinformatics Core Facility
>>> http://www.bioinformatics.uthscsa.edu
>>> Phone: (210) 567-2672
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> XCSSA mailing list
>>> XCSSA at xcssa.org
>>> http://xcssa.org/mailman/listinfo/xcssa
>>>
>>>
>>> End of XCSSA Digest, Vol 18, Issue 9
>>> ************************************
>>>
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