[XCSSA] U-Too, Tim S.?

Fri May 22 08:01:36 CDT 2009

Hehaeh yeah you almost read my mind since I was going to add something  
very similar but figured I had digressed enough :) Gentoo has so much  
promise and, in fact, the whole source-based thing is something I  
really like. 'yum' and 'apt-get' could add just a few features and end  
up having a really nice package manager plus being able to  
conveniently build and manage source packages (say in the form of  
source RPMs and DEBs). I started caring less when x86-64 started to  
really gain steam though. Because these packages seem to be more  
optimized than their i386 counterparts.

The foundation of Gentoo is solid in my opinion. The main problem is  
lack of consistency. Gentoo needs a leader. Or at least a group that  
pushes them in the right direction. There doesn't seem to be any good  
method of revision, packages break other packages, a "stable" system  
really isn't, etc. If they had their own version of a Mark  
Shuttleworth (the Ubuntu guy) then things might turn around. The guy  
they had ended up working for Microsoft (jerk). On that note, though,  
sponsorship from a company might not hurt either.

*shrug*

http://funroll-loops.info/

Tim S.

On May 21, 2009, at 11:56 PM, X-otic Computer Systems of San Antonio  
wrote:

>
> OMG that was the baddest @$$ description of Gentoo I've ever heard...
>
> now add...
>
> Your super-model gf convinces you to be Mr. Mailman Wonderful's next  
> victim... and you don't like men in that way... AT ALL!
>
> THAT'S Gentoo!
>
> --- On Thu, 5/21/09, xcssa-request at xcssa.org <xcssa- 
> request at xcssa.org> wrote:
>
>> From: xcssa-request at xcssa.org <xcssa-request at xcssa.org>
>> Subject: XCSSA Digest, Vol 18, Issue 9
>> To: xcssa at xcssa.org
>> Date: Thursday, May 21, 2009, 12:00 PM
>> Send XCSSA mailing list submissions
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>    1. Recommendations for a SAMBA/NAS
>> device?
>>       (X-otic Computer Systems of San
>> Antonio)
>>    2. Re: Recommendations for a SAMBA/NAS
>> device?
>>       (X-otic Computer Systems of San
>> Antonio)
>>    3. Re: Recommendations for a SAMBA/NAS
>> device?
>>       (X-otic Computer Systems of San
>> Antonio)
>>    4. Re: Recommendations for a SAMBA/NAS
>> device?
>>       (X-otic Computer Systems of San
>> Antonio)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 22:32:58 -0500
>> From: X-otic Computer Systems of San Antonio <xcssa at xcssa.org>
>> Subject: [XCSSA] Recommendations for a SAMBA/NAS device?
>> To: "The San Antonio Linux User's Group Mailing List"
>>     <satlug at satlug.org>,
>> xcssa at xcssa.org
>> Message-ID:
>>     <869de8470905202032s5a9a53edu1df3fd1df7bc06db at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>> Hello everyone.
>>
>> I'm trying to solve a major power issue at the house and am
>> hoping
>> that someone can shed some of their energy managment
>> insight.
>>
>> I've been using Zeus (my main gaming rig) as my fileserver
>> now for a
>> while but am wantnig to see what I can do about cutting
>> down on my
>> power usage.  Zeus is an Athlon64 running at about
>> 3GHz with a total
>> of 7 drives in it and a handful of other peripherals. The
>> problem is
>> that four of those drives are SATA 750GB drives and are
>> hanging off of
>> a Promise FastTrack TX130 RAID controller and the array is
>> about 2TB
>> and has pretty much everything on it concerning projects,
>> documents,
>> code, apps, etc. and is very important to have always
>> available.
>>
>> The problem I'm wanting to solve is how can I minimize
>> power usage but
>> still keep the array available?  I've pondered being
>> able to seperate
>> the drive array from the machine, but I'd have to have a
>> machine to
>> put it into and then I'd be back to the same problem
>> again.
>>
>> My thinking is that a low-powered machine, like an embedded
>> system
>> would do it nicely, but I want to make every effort I can
>> to insure
>> that the machine is as low-power as possible, and that the
>> data on the
>> array is preserved. I am thinking something like the
>> Linksys NSLU2,
>> but with one PCI slot instead of two USB ports, running off
>> of flash
>> or a laptop HDD in a Linux environment.
>>
>> I've done some research into an embedded systems and was
>> impressed
>> with the Shuttle and VIA boards.  Something like that
>> might prove
>> ideal but I have never used one.  I have an Artigo
>> pico-ITX board but
>> it is very underpowered, I don't want to run into a similar
>> situation
>> with this project.
>>
>> With that in mind, I'm looking for suggestions both from a
>> hardware
>> level and from a software level.
>>
>> On the hardware side, I want a case that has three forward
>> facing 5.25
>> drives (the SATA drive cage I have occupies three bays) and
>> some place
>> to mount a laptop HDD (or if a flash drive is used, this
>> requirement
>> is mitigated).
>>
>> The hardware must haves:
>> - 10/100 Ethernet wired.  (GigE is a Nice-to-have, but
>> not required)
>> - One PCI slot (PCI-64bit is not needed)
>> - One IDE port or Flash disk capable of a 4GB microdrive or
>> similar
>> sized CF card.
>> - Power Supply that won't crap out on me in a year that can
>> be easily
>> field-replaced and can drive all components. (No fifty
>> thousand power
>> bricks and don't want another "e-machines" power supply)
>> - Processor that is not massively overpowered, but not
>> horribly
>> underpowered either. Want to be able to run LAMP and SAMBA
>> and support
>> multiple concurrent users without issue. (Believe it or
>> not, Windows
>> works without issue in it's current configuration.)
>> - Must have adequate cooling but not sound like a jet
>> engine.  (Don't
>> want it louder than a Compaq DL380 :P )
>>
>> On the software side, must haves
>> - Linux platform, with modular installation/removal. (Like
>> apt-get,
>> but recently got stung by Ubuntu so not too sure on
>> software updates.)
>> - SSH, Samba, Apache, NTP
>> - Hardware support for the FastTrack TX430 is a
>> _MUST_  I can't afford
>> another RAID card and besides, where am I going to stash a
>> TB of data
>> for the conversion?
>>
>> Nice-to-haves (both hardware and software)
>> - Really don't want another desktop or server case around
>> the house,
>> something smaller is nice
>> - A Web-based administration console like the NSLU2 or
>> similar.
>>
>> What do you guys recommend? What are your experiences with
>> home-NAS
>> solutions?  What issues did you encounter and what did
>> you do to fix
>> them?
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>> FIRESTORM_v1
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 08:14:54 -0500
>> From: X-otic Computer Systems of San Antonio <xcssa at xcssa.org>
>> Subject: Re: [XCSSA] Recommendations for a SAMBA/NAS
>> device?
>> To: xcssa at xcssa.org
>> Message-ID:
>>     <E8B3743B-99E7-4A1B-B0A1-E75B17451852 at moocowproductions.org>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed;
>> delsp=yes
>>
>> If you're lazy and can afford it (as these are a bit
>> pricey):
>>
>> http://drobo.com/ (need the NAS add-on)
>> http://qnap.com/
>> http://www.buffalotech.com/home/
>>
>> That first one blew my mind, though I think it's just RAID
>> + LVM +
>> cleverness + magic. I dunno though. Sure is convenient
>> (watch the
>> video if you want to have your mind blown). It's really
>> pricey though
>> with the NAS option.
>> That last one has an open source hack you can drop in (and
>> I think has
>> a generic version as well). Check Wikipedia for that. The
>> top 2 both
>> run a type of Linux. I think the stuff from QNap is even
>> Debian Linux.
>>
>> Now if you want to throw down on your own, check out
>> logicsupply.com.
>> They have tons low-power motherboards (mostly ITX), some
>> with their
>> own CF slot on-board. They also offer specialized cases,
>> including for
>> NAS use. I like these guys because of their VIA selection -
>> they have
>> plenty of passively cooled motherboards with plenty of SATA
>> ports for
>> RAID (in this case, software RAID is probably all you need,
>> but don't
>> forget to add on LVM - see below) also with CF Cards and
>> Gigabit
>> Ethernet. They aren't the cheapest but their select beats
>> the crap out
>> of NewEgg's for these type of boards.
>>
>> Otherwise, I just have been making a list on NewEgg. NewEgg
>> also has
>> some off-the-shelf NAS units (such as the ones I mentioned
>> above).
>>
>> Now, to elaborate a bit on power, most of the off-the-shelf
>> NAS units
>> that run Linux are running ARM, which is very low power and
>> reasonably
>> performing. If you want to replicate all the features of a
>> NAS (which
>> could include basis web-browsing / web-development) then a
>> VIA C3, C7,
>> or Nano would be plenty. You can get an Intel Atom too but
>> I think
>> Intel is late to the party on these things (and I'm tired
>> of their
>> copy-cat like mentality and their general dominance). All
>> of these
>> chips run at around 1Ghz or so, which is plenty for a NAS
>> even with
>> web-services and/or a firewall. And we're talking 5-10W at
>> full blast.
>> In fact, Nano (and I think Atom) are 64-bit capable, though
>> that seems
>> a bit of overkill for a NAS - you won't need more than 1GB
>> of RAM
>> unless you plan on doing something else with it.
>>
>> Now all these are x86 boards. I haven't found any ITX (or
>> ATX, for
>> that matter) motherboard with an ARM or MIPS chip that
>> wouldn't cost
>> me like $1000. *shrug* Kinda sucks but oh well.
>>
>> As for RAID. I currently have an LSI MegaRAID and it's
>> pretty hot, but
>> I realized that for a home NAS, it's not really necessary.
>> In fact,
>> Linux software RAID is really awesome. Sure, you might
>> loose some
>> performance in certain cases, but if you don't have a
>> battery on your
>> RAID controller, you should be using write-through cache,
>> and your
>> write performance isn't boosted anyway. Plus, if we're
>> talking about a
>> RAID5, you shouldn't be expecting amazing speed anyway. And
>> Linux
>> Software RAID can be tied to, say, e-mail alerting, so you
>> can get e-
>> mails instead of annoying beeps when a drive dies.
>>
>> In fact, I'm putting my money where my mouth is - when I
>> build my NAS,
>> I don't think I'm going to use the RAID card. In fact, if
>> you are
>> stuck on hardware RAID, I'd be happy to sell it to you for
>> a
>> reasonable price. That said, I haven't yet migrated my
>> stuff off it
>> yet and that is still probably a few months away.
>>
>> You could use RAID5 and stop there because software RAID
>> lets you
>> extend that space. That's dangerous, yes, but it can be
>> done online
>> and I am much more comfortable with a command-line utility
>> than a
>> crazy RAID BIOS. Point is, you could pop in a drive,
>> partition it, add
>> it to the RAID5, and then grow your file-system (resize2fs
>> if you are
>> using ext3 - XFS has tools to do it as well - note in later
>> versions
>> of Linux this can also be done online).
>>
>> But I wouldn't stop there. Instead, also consider LVM. When
>> you aren't
>> using it for snapshotting, the performance penalty of LVM
>> is like 1%
>> (that is a number with a real benchmark behind it, although
>> it was
>> MySQL-centric). The benefits are HUGE though. If you want
>> to migrate
>> to a bigger RAID5, but do not want to add drives to the
>> existing
>> RAID5, all you do is build the new one, plop LVM on it, and
>> then tell
>> LVM to stop using your current RAID5 and move everything to
>> your new
>> RAID5. Then resize your file-system. That's it. All while
>> being
>> totally online. No rsync's needed! Similarly, if you just
>> want to add
>> more space instead of replacing it, you can do that too.
>>
>>
>> Now is all this is super-new, my suggestion would be to
>> find a Linux
>> distro that has this baked in. I hate to say it, but I've
>> been taking
>> the RHCE and I have to admit that Red-Hat has this stuff
>> fairly
>> squared away. So consider CentOS. When I build mine,
>> however, I'm
>> going Ubuntu with a distant possibility of using FreeBSD.
>> For now,
>> though, my current box runs Gentoo.
>>
>> I $&%^ing hate that distro. It's like being married to
>> a super-model,
>> thinking she loves you and being naive that she will never
>> cheat on
>> you. But then, BAM! There's her and your mailman knocking
>> boots after
>> you came home from work. Not even home early. Just home at
>> your
>> regular time. And like you're angry and sad and all torn
>> up
>> emotionality, but then you keep coming back because you're
>> lame and
>> she's a super-model.
>>
>> That's Gentoo in a nutshell. Moving on ...
>>
>> You could also look at NAS-centric stuff, like FreeNAS
>> (Runs FreeBSD)
>> or OpenFilter (runs Linux, dunno which flavor). They have,
>> I believe,
>> tools to help you manage things like RAID and LVM (though I
>> have no
>> idea how they do that on FreeBSD - I assume using ZFS).
>>
>> If I can ever make it to a meeting again, I'd be happy to
>> show off my
>> new found RHCE (training, I don't have the cert yet :P)
>> skills and
>> bust a demo of this stuff in action. I should be able to
>> use our
>> current MySQL test box from work for this purpose - I don't
>> think
>> anyone would mind. I think I could even do it in a VM.
>>
>> Wow. Well that make me so excited I'm not late for work :)
>> Ooops :)
>>
>> Tim S.
>>
>> On May 20, 2009, at 10:32 PM, X-otic Computer Systems of
>> San Antonio
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello everyone.
>>>
>>> I'm trying to solve a major power issue at the house
>> and am hoping
>>> that someone can shed some of their energy managment
>> insight.
>>>
>>> I've been using Zeus (my main gaming rig) as my
>> fileserver now for a
>>> while but am wantnig to see what I can do about
>> cutting down on my
>>> power usage.  Zeus is an Athlon64 running at
>> about 3GHz with a total
>>> of 7 drives in it and a handful of other peripherals.
>> The problem is
>>> that four of those drives are SATA 750GB drives and
>> are hanging off of
>>> a Promise FastTrack TX130 RAID controller and the
>> array is about 2TB
>>> and has pretty much everything on it concerning
>> projects, documents,
>>> code, apps, etc. and is very important to have always
>> available.
>>>
>>> The problem I'm wanting to solve is how can I minimize
>> power usage but
>>> still keep the array available?  I've pondered
>> being able to seperate
>>> the drive array from the machine, but I'd have to have
>> a machine to
>>> put it into and then I'd be back to the same problem
>> again.
>>>
>>> My thinking is that a low-powered machine, like an
>> embedded system
>>> would do it nicely, but I want to make every effort I
>> can to insure
>>> that the machine is as low-power as possible, and that
>> the data on the
>>> array is preserved. I am thinking something like the
>> Linksys NSLU2,
>>> but with one PCI slot instead of two USB ports,
>> running off of flash
>>> or a laptop HDD in a Linux environment.
>>>
>>> I've done some research into an embedded systems and
>> was impressed
>>> with the Shuttle and VIA boards.  Something like
>> that might prove
>>> ideal but I have never used one.  I have an
>> Artigo pico-ITX board but
>>> it is very underpowered, I don't want to run into a
>> similar situation
>>> with this project.
>>>
>>> With that in mind, I'm looking for suggestions both
>> from a hardware
>>> level and from a software level.
>>>
>>> On the hardware side, I want a case that has three
>> forward facing 5.25
>>> drives (the SATA drive cage I have occupies three
>> bays) and some place
>>> to mount a laptop HDD (or if a flash drive is used,
>> this requirement
>>> is mitigated).
>>>
>>> The hardware must haves:
>>> - 10/100 Ethernet wired.  (GigE is a
>> Nice-to-have, but not required)
>>> - One PCI slot (PCI-64bit is not needed)
>>> - One IDE port or Flash disk capable of a 4GB
>> microdrive or similar
>>> sized CF card.
>>> - Power Supply that won't crap out on me in a year
>> that can be easily
>>> field-replaced and can drive all components. (No fifty
>> thousand power
>>> bricks and don't want another "e-machines" power
>> supply)
>>> - Processor that is not massively overpowered, but not
>> horribly
>>> underpowered either. Want to be able to run LAMP and
>> SAMBA and support
>>> multiple concurrent users without issue. (Believe it
>> or not, Windows
>>> works without issue in it's current configuration.)
>>> - Must have adequate cooling but not sound like a jet
>> engine.  (Don't
>>> want it louder than a Compaq DL380 :P )
>>>
>>> On the software side, must haves
>>> - Linux platform, with modular installation/removal.
>> (Like apt-get,
>>> but recently got stung by Ubuntu so not too sure on
>> software updates.)
>>> - SSH, Samba, Apache, NTP
>>> - Hardware support for the FastTrack TX430 is a
>> _MUST_  I can't afford
>>> another RAID card and besides, where am I going to
>> stash a TB of data
>>> for the conversion?
>>>
>>> Nice-to-haves (both hardware and software)
>>> - Really don't want another desktop or server case
>> around the house,
>>> something smaller is nice
>>> - A Web-based administration console like the NSLU2 or
>> similar.
>>>
>>> What do you guys recommend? What are your experiences
>> with home-NAS
>>> solutions?  What issues did you encounter and
>> what did you do to fix
>>> them?
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance.
>>>
>>> FIRESTORM_v1
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> XCSSA mailing list
>>> XCSSA at xcssa.org
>>> http://xcssa.org/mailman/listinfo/xcssa
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 10:55:41 -0500
>> From: X-otic Computer Systems of San Antonio <xcssa at xcssa.org>
>> Subject: Re: [XCSSA] Recommendations for a SAMBA/NAS
>> device?
>> To: xcssa at xcssa.org
>> Cc: The San Antonio Linux User's Group Mailing List
>>     <satlug at satlug.org>
>> Message-ID: <200905211055.42145.tweeks at rackspace.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain;  charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> On Wednesday 20 May 2009, X-otic Computer Systems of San
>> Antonio wrote:
>>> Hello everyone.
>>>
>>> I'm trying to solve a major power issue at the house
>> and am hoping
>>> that someone can shed some of their energy managment
>> insight.
>>> [...]
>>> The problem is
>>> that four of those drives are SATA 750GB drives and
>> are hanging off of
>> [...]
>>> My thinking is that a low-powered machine, like an
>> embedded system
>>> would do it nicely,
>> [...]
>>> What do you guys recommend? What are your experiences
>> with home-NAS
>>> solutions?  What issues did you encounter and
>> what did you do to fix
>>> them?
>>
>> I think that your thinking is off.. Using a low power
>> embedded motherboard is
>> barely going to touch your power consumption when 85% of
>> your NAS power is
>> being consumed by the spinning drives (not the
>> motherboard).
>>
>> I don't mean to sound harsh.. but what you need to do is to
>> look in to using
>> a "real RAID card" with battery backed up cache, write back
>> cache, and power
>> control so that when he array is not being written to.. the
>> drives can be
>> spun down.  Then when a write happens.. it writes to
>> the cache and goes on
>> while the RAID card wakes up the drives and spins them
>> up.  Some reads can
>> even stay cached.
>>
>> Some OTS home-NAS systems do this now.  But nicer RAID
>> cards that can handle
>> this type of stuff are the nicer LSI, Adaptec and 3Ware
>> IIRC SATA and SAS
>> cards.
>>
>> There are a couple of folks on list who have built such
>> systems...
>>
>> Tweeks
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 11:11:37 -0500
>> From: X-otic Computer Systems of San Antonio <xcssa at xcssa.org>
>> Subject: Re: [XCSSA] Recommendations for a SAMBA/NAS
>> device?
>> To: xcssa at xcssa.org
>> Message-ID:
>>     <79ec289f0905210911u28a53c93ocd446d10542c391d at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>> On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 10:55 AM, X-otic Computer Systems
>> of San
>> Antonio <xcssa at xcssa.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't mean to sound harsh.. but what you need to do
>> is to look in to using
>>> a "real RAID card" with battery backed up cache, write
>> back cache, and power
>>> control so that when he array is not being written
>> to.. the drives can be
>>> spun down. ?Then when a write happens.. it writes to
>> the cache and goes on
>>> while the RAID card wakes up the drives and spins them
>> up. ?Some reads can
>>> even stay cached.
>>>
>>> Some OTS home-NAS systems do this now. ?But nicer RAID
>> cards that can handle
>>> this type of stuff are the nicer LSI, Adaptec and
>> 3Ware IIRC SATA and SAS
>>> cards.
>>
>> I think the real question is, is it worth the cost of the
>> new wiz bang
>> hardware versus his existing electrical bill? To me it
>> doesn't make
>> sense to spend $1000 on new hardware to save $5 a month on
>> your
>> electric bill.
>>
>> Jeremy
>>
>> -- 
>> Jeremy Mann
>> jeremy at biochem.uthscsa.edu
>>
>> University of Texas Health Science Center
>> Bioinformatics Core Facility
>> http://www.bioinformatics.uthscsa.edu
>> Phone: (210) 567-2672
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> XCSSA mailing list
>> XCSSA at xcssa.org
>> http://xcssa.org/mailman/listinfo/xcssa
>>
>>
>> End of XCSSA Digest, Vol 18, Issue 9
>> ************************************
>>
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